Right. Now that I've gotten my "sentimental drivel" out of the way, I actually have something to talk about.
First, I need to mention that we went to dinner with Kitten's mom tonight. This week is Kitten's birthday and her mom is going to be out of town, so we went to dinner with her tonight so we could share it with her. We went to our favorite local hibachi restaurant. Her mom hadn't had it in a long time, and I love Japaneese, so it was a win all around.
I'd like to say this, I think Kitten is really lucky because her mom is always proud to be seen out with us. She is always happy to tell people we're her daughters. I ran into an old schoolmate tonight and we got to talking over the table. I am sincerely delighted, because we were talking about Kitten and I's honeymoon and her mom totally took it in stride. She didn't look embarassed or ashamed. She just smiled. It made me happy, because a lot of parents wouldn't be okay with it. A lot wouldn't think that the honeymoon of her lesbian daughter was appropriate dinner conversation. Mom has no problem with it. I love that. She spoke to me earlier in the evening about "when" I meet her sister I should ask her about certain things when Kitten was growing up. She spoke of it as a certainty, like she knew I would meet her one day (she lives on the other side of the country, which I suppose is why we haven't met before now) She didn't say "if" or "maybe" and implied that her sister knows about our relationship and has no problem with it. It made me feel really good.
So before mom arrived we were there early because I didn't have to work as late today as I normally do. It was quiet. So we got to the restaurant and made our way to the bar to have a cocktail and chat with the bartender, who knows us pretty well. Before you go thinking we're heavy drinkers- I'm allergic to seafood, so I always ask for a specific chef. He's never had an accident or cross contaminated my food. I know I'm safe to eat with him. The result is sometimes on busy nights we sit at the bar quite a while waiting for his turn in rotation. So the bartenders see a lot of us, whether we drink or not.
Cocktail conversation this evening was inspired by a friend of mine who mentioned one of his guy friends went out with a girl a couple of times and then slept with her. Afterwards he decided that he didn't like her all that well because she was willing to sleep with him on the second date. My friend pointed out to him that he would have dumped her if she'd made him wait six months, and he agreed that was probably true.
So...what's the magic number? At what point is it "okay" to start having sex with the person you're seeing? That was our big debate tonight. I think we were slightly divided in some ways, but it ends up equating to the same thing when you work it out. I think.
We decided it depends on what the situation is. If you're out looking for a good time, of course you're probably not going to wait as long. That's natural. If I were to go out trolling for women (forgive the expression) then I don't need to wait three or four dates to sleep with her. That's why I'm picking her up, right? Time frame shortens (for me) to long enough to ascertain she is disease free and regularly gets tested for AIDS and uses protection.
Now, if I'm in a relationship its a whole new ball game. If I am dating you because I like you as a person and I want to be in a long term relationship with you, the waiting period is longer.
Have I had sex on a first date? Yes. Did the relationship pan out? Hell no. Here's why: in the end, that was actually more likely part of the first catagory. We're all been there right? Here's my friend, acquaintance, whatever. We've talked, we're cool, and they're pretty good looking. You go out, you end up in bed. Turns out it was a fling and you were really more interested in the sex. Sometimes you go back to being friends, sometimes, alas, you don't. The end.
There are, however, those special circumstances where you know this person is special. You want to be with this person. For a long time, or at least a fairly good period of time. This is where the numbers get tricky. Kitten is of the opinion that between 4-7 dates is appropriate depending on the person. I agree, to a point. For example, in our relationship, we waited quite some time. The second time around. This current relationship. the first time I think we may have hit the 4 date mark, if you count meeting up at the bar and dancing all night a date. But this time around we waited for what seemed like an aeon before we did. Now, I was in a unique postition, given the relationship prior to her, but suffice to say when the time did come, I was more than ready.
Now, here's where she and I rather diverge in viewpoints. See, for me, I don't think you can put a time period on it. I think there's probably an average. I think its even likely it falls in the 4-7 date range. But for me, its a feeling. My view is you wait until you can't possibly wait any longer, you're about to freak out, your genitals may actually pack up and leave town in mutiny if something doesn't happen soon.
Maybe I'm a massochist. Maybe its just my thing. Maybe I'm old fashioned. For me, though, I think there should be a kiss goodnight kind of night. I think there should be some making out. I think that should progress to some heavy petting with expressions of wanting more. I think that may or may not involve oral sex, given the relationship and the people in it. I think said oral sex probably comes next. But after that- that's the time. You've stopped, and stopped and dithered about respecting each other and how much you care and how the relationship might be affected. That's when it happens, if it ever does. That's the time you have sex. When you think you can't take another second of how beautiful your potential partner is. When the thought of not being with them is totally and completely intolerable and possibly a risk to your sanity. THAT'S when you have sex.
Of course, if you're as impatient as me, this could happen before date four. Or, if this person falls into the type of person catagory one is. You've known them forever, you've been friends a long time, you're ready to take it to the next level and that first or second date was so amazing you can't wait to please them in bed, yeah, you might have sex on date two or three. Is it rare that works out? Probably, I don't have any hard numbers, but I'm betting so.
Even then, I think it does come down to the relationship itself. I'm convinced that if I had slept with Kitten the night I ran back into her, we would still be married and happy and together. But then, I know we were made for each other.
But I think circumstance can make all the difference. Take Perpet, for example. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that I've slept with my BFF. I'm pretty sure if I haven't she won't care (you don't do you, darling? :)) She and I had known each other for almost 5 years before we slept together. Did it take us that long to discover we wanted to sleep together? Hell no. I knew I thought she was attractive about ten minutes into meeting her. I knew she'd be a good time before the first month we were official besties was out. But it wasn't time.
(Actually, an aside, mostly addressed to her: you know, I was thinking that we should have signed the walls of all the bar bathrooms we made out in, because I'm pretty sure that most of the bars downtown would have our signatures on them by now...)
Anyway, point is, we were way into our relationship before we did, and it actually happened after she got married. Thank god and goddess for the poor Boy, who finally broke down at a bar one night and told us he was going to go nuts if we didn't get it over with once and for all. We did. That night. Honestly, I'm glad for it. I don't know if we would have ever gotten to it if he hadn't said soemthing because by that time I think we were so accustomed to our attraction to each other it almost didnt register anymore. It wasn't like "Gosh, Perpet looks hot and I love her so much, I ought to see about sleeping with her." Ever.
Fortunately for me we did and it was nice and we don't have to do it again if we don't want to. We know, and we still love each other, and nothing changed except now I've slept with my best friend. And she's still my best friend. I'm fortunate she's that cool. I've seen it go the other way. Rogue is a great example of that, though we never really had sex. Not in the technical sense anyway.
Point is, and I know I digress, I think timing has a lot less to do with actual timing and a lot more to do with how you feel about a person and the way you view them. And what kind of person you are.
Oh- I suppose the other thing I ought to mention, and you can see it is almost an afterthought- is the idea that you shouldn't have sex with your partner until you're married. Obviously, I am not a fan of this idea. In part because I like sex. But also because I think you set yourself up for disappointment sometimes when you do that. I think you make sex into something it shouldn't be. I mean, don't get me wrong, I think sex is special and the person you're with should be special. I'm not a fan of one night stands. I like to know the name and birthday of the person I'm bedding. I think sex can be beautiful and intimate and wonderful. But I also think that, like the timing, that kind of sex is entirely dependent on the person you're with. Sex, to me, isn't a reward. Its not a holy act. Its not something you expect and its definately not something that should be a sacrifice for you. Sex, in the end, is sex. It can be fun, it can be silly-and sometimes that makes it awesome- it can be serious and it can be beautiful. But in the end, its a form of pleasure, and its something you do to show the person you're with that they are as beautiful as their company makes you feel. I think when you wait until marriage, especially if you aren't a virgin and you've decided to wait, you run the risk of setting yourself up for disappointment. And you're partner. It works for some people, but I'm happy it wasn't something I did, because I would have missed out on a lot of special moments in my life if I had.
So, I'm really interested to see what everyone thinks about this one, because I find the whole idea fascinating. You're opinion would be appreciated, because frankly, I like to know what you think about things like this, even if they are really trivial things in the grand scheme of it all.